The Personal Journey

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Our own personal equity journeys are essential in this work. This episode will feature storytelling from Lisa Moore and Zach Cockrum, folks who have spent time self-reflecting on their journeys with accountability, healing, and repair.

Speakers

Lisa Moore – Editorial Director, Wildlife Magazines
Zach Cockrum – Senior Director, Sustainable Oceans
Kaila Drayton – VP of Operations
Nicole Litwiller – Equity and Justice Storytelling Fellow

Transcript

♫ Theme Music ♫

Zach Cockrum
First things first, when you've done harm is stop the bleeding, stop the shame spiral because it's not a productive space. It is important, I think, to actually, of course, to feel guilt over your actions. But staying in that space does not allow you to do the work that you need to do to recover.

♫ Theme Music ♫

Kaila Drayton
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Seeds of Culture Change, a podcast where we are discussing the National Wildlife Federation's journey towards equity and justice. My name is Kaila.

Nicole Litwiller
And I'm Nicole.

Kaila Drayton
And we are your co-hosts guiding you along on this journey. Nicole, how are you?

Nicole Litwiller
I'm doing all right today. I've been able to sit outside a little bit. It's surprisingly nice for a Virginia summer today. And I've gotten to spend some time with you, which is always a pleasure.

Kaila Drayton
Amazing

Nicole Litwiller
Anytime. How are you?

Kaila Drayton
I'm doing well. It is sunny here too in Baltimore. And like you said uncharacteristically not humid. You know, I should have said that more eloquently. But y'all who are on the Eastern Seaboard, and particularly around DC will understand what I'm saying. But also, you know, I went outside, I sat I have a little like picnic table, and I sat at the table, and I ignored all the things around the house that I should and could and would be doing.

Nicole Litwiller
Take that word 'should' out. I'm trying to remove it from my vocabulary, to be honest. My therapist has encouraged me with that as well, so.

Kaila Drayton
I love that. But I was looking around, and I'm like, I wonder if Nicole will identify this, I knew that we would be talking today. And so I wanted to ask you if there is a chore or a household task that you simply refuse to do. You don't even consider it.

Nicole Litwiller
Oh man, I will say that between my partner and I, I am definitely the person who enjoys chores less. He really enjoys he loves vacuuming like, our vacuum is also kind of like a transformer. So he gets to like, take out his toy, whatever he gets to vacuum. I have not washed windows since like having my own place. Is that like a thing that people do? Like, I had that chore as a kid, but I might have originally thought about it.

Kaila Drayton
Am I supposed to be washing the windows?

Nicole Litwiller
Our windows are kind of grimy, I don't know. I figure that's something that maybe I could do if I felt like it.

Kaila Drayton
Well, now I have like two answers to the things that I refuse to do.

Nicole Litwiller
I feel like there's a couple of very basic chores that I do. And then the rest I'm like, No, why would I do that?

Kaila Drayton
Yeah, look I'm surviving. I'm functioning on a very basic level where like, I have clean dishes and clean clothing. The rest of it is questionable. But I don't do a whole lot of dusting, intentional dusting. I am looking- So my desk, the desk that I sit at has shelves, I'm never gonna clean them. I looked at I look at it every day and I'm like, that's disgusting. That's really dusty. And then I put my palm print in it as I climb up onto my stool to sit at my desk and I do absolutely nothing about it. I'm not going to do it. I if there's someone out there who is dusting their baseboards. God bless you.

Nicole Litwiller
Yes! Oh that's a good point.

Kaila Drayton
Please contact me and let me know what your tips and tricks are. How do you convince yourself that you're like ‘Today's the day I'm gonna dust my baseboards?’ It's not me and I, maybe I should just hire someone.

Nicole Litwiller
I- being a human and surviving in this world is hard enough. Like you can't expect me to dust the baseboards in my apartment. No.

Kaila Drayton
Come on.

Nicole Litwiller
It's just not gonna happen.

Kaila Drayton
Who's noticing that? Here's the thing. If you come over to my house, and you notice that the baseboards are dusty, I'm never inviting you over again. We're not compatible, we can't be friends.

Nicole Litwiller
I think that's a valid point.

Kaila Drayton
Well, on the subject of basic functioning. Today's episode is going to be on healing and repair and accountability, some really central themes in the equity and justice work that we're doing at NWF, things that we identify with in the workplace, and then we bring these themes into our personal life as well. As a warning, there's no real reference to specific trauma, but it's a it's a heavy conversation today. It's a vulnerable one. And we just wanted to warn listeners that it's not as light hearted as our episodes generally are.

Nicole Litwiller
Yeah, so we will be talking to a familiar voice who you've heard before Lisa Moore, who works with the magazine, and then we are also talking with Zack Cockrum today. And Kaila and I have been looking forward to this interview for months. And I can say with confidence that it is a really meaningful conversation, which is why this episode will be a bit longer than normal, because we just didn't want to cut much out from the interview. And we just are really excited to share it with all of you. So without further ado, let's get right into it.

Nicole Litwiller
Zach and Lisa, welcome. We are so glad to have you both. Lisa, welcome back. Zach, welcome for the first time. I'm wondering if we could start out specifically Zach, since folks haven't met you yet, sharing your name pronouns, your role at NWF, and perhaps your favorite snack?

Zach Cockrum
Sure thing, and I'm really happy to be here for this conversation. So my name is Zack Cockrum. I'm Senior Director of Ocean Sustainability. I use he/his pronouns. Favorite snack, you know, I was struggling with this one a little bit. It's definitely whatever scraps my kids have not finished. I don't get to pick snacks for myself. So it's like the goldfish that are laying around a little bit of yogurt here or there. It's just, it's whatever I can get my hands on.

Nicole Litwiller
That's fair. And my hope for you is that you prioritize your own snacking needs at some point this week.

Zach Cockrum
Eventually it will come back.

Kaila Drayton
And hide them.

Nicole Litwiller
Yes, good call. Well, Lisa, that people have already met you in a previous episode. But do you want to also share your favorite snack with us?

Zach Cockrum
Yes.

Lisa Moore
Yeah, hi again. It's so nice to be here. My favorite snack is a spoonful of Skippy creamy peanut butter. I just wander in the kitchen, take a spoonful and savor it very slowly. And it makes me so happy.

Nicole Litwiller
Nice. That's a very good go to.

Lisa Moore
And Zack sounds like a forager.

Nicole Litwiller
Kaila, do you want to jump in as well? Do you have a favorite snack?

Kaila Drayton
Well, I never miss an opportunity to share my opinion or anything about myself. I think that popcorn is usually my go to. And you know I don't I don't have a set flavor, except kettle corn is trash. And you can fight me on it. But any-

Nicole Litwiller
Oh no!

Kaila Drayton
But anything else. Anything savory goes. Lisa is horrified

Lisa Moore
We have to go to the mat on that one.

Kaila Drayton
Nicole, what is your go to snack?

Nicole Litwiller
Yeah, I mean, I have a huge sweet tooth. I love dark chocolate. But I think the most common snack that I'm like, Oh, I really want this right now is sour cream and cheddar Ruffles. Those are my favorites. I love them so much. Well, thank you, everybody for sharing your answers to the goofy question. Appreciate it.

Kaila Drayton
Yeah, I'm glad that we started with a lighthearted checking question because I think today's conversation is going to be really important and a little bit vulnerable. And so I pose this question, Lisa, I'll start with you. And then Zach, I'll turn to you after but in your own words, why do you think that it's important to prioritize healing, repair and accountability, both from a personal standpoint? And then as we look at the organization as a whole, what role does healing and accountability play there? So again, Lisa, I'll start with you.

Lisa Moore
Thanks, Kaila. I guess I would reverse the order for me I would start with accountability, which for me is sort of having awareness of my position of privilege in our culture and in our organization, and recognizing that I need to be accountable to myself and also to my colleagues and to our audience, which in my case, I'm thinking of our readers of our magazine. And being accountable means you know, making an effort to understand the federation's equity values and doing everything I can to ensure that myself and my work reflect those values. And then recognizing when I fail, and calling out the failure or being open to hearing feedback about it, and just learning from that failure and trying to do better, I guess that's how I think of accountability. Repair is just making the effort to acknowledge mistakes, and recognizing the impact of harm I've caused. Regardless of my intent, I have to own the impact and apologize as honestly as I can to people I may have harmed. Understanding that I am not owed forgiveness, and then working very intentionally to try and improve and grow and avoid causing future harm. And healing is probably the most important of these, and it's probably the most difficult to achieve. Again, it's personal. It's internal work. And it's professional. And it just means showing people through my actions, rather than words that I do own and regret, mistakes that I've made, and that I'm committed to learning and changing and doing better. And all of it matters because these three things are all about building trust with my colleagues, and that enables us all to be more productive, and have more honest working relationships.

Kaila Drayton
Thank you, Lisa, for those reflections. Zach, same question to you in thinking about healing, repair and accountability, how and why should we be prioritizing those? Yeah, I

Zach Cockrum
Yeah, I would echo a lot of what Lisa said. And I guess, you know, accountability is the end goal, right. And that's, I mean, frankly, it's accountability for your actions for your missteps, and repair is the step to accountability. And that is the action of reaching out to somebody you've harmed, you're not owed that conversation or that space. And if you can't get a hold of the person that you harmed, it's finding somebody that you know, to talk through to support you and help understand what mistakes you made. But really, it feels like it all starts with healing. So we don't get stuck in that trap of mistake, repair, mistake, repair. Because if you're not doing the work yourself on healing, and trying to figure out and look inside, why you're continuing to do these actions that are harming your colleagues or harming other people, then you're gonna get stuck in that loop. And so it's really important to take the time to do the self-reflection, about ‘why is this so hard? Why do I keep making these mistakes?’ And even as you do that self-reflection and try and learn and grow, you're still going to keep making mistakes, that's part of the process. But really taking the time for that self-reflection is just incredibly important. It all starts from there. And you have to do that healing work in order to create the space to do the repair. And then you have to do the repair to achieve accountability.

Kaila Drayton
I'm so glad that you've referenced the cycle that some folks get stuck in where it's like you apologize, and then you make the same mistake again, you apologize and make the same mistake again. And I think, Lisa, to your point, one of the most important aspects, in my opinion, is action. Right? So it can't be that you made a mistake, and you went through the, you know, the course of repair, and then you didn't learn from it. You didn't grow from it, you're too worried about your image, or perfectionism or whatever it might be, or even having this sense of not wanting to admit that you did cause harm. I think that folks get stuck in the spiral and action is really a key element.

Nicole Litwiller
Yeah, definitely. I really resonate with so much of what all three of you have said, and Zach, I heard you name self reflection. And to me that has been such an important part of my journey, as I've continued to learn and be held accountable. And that kind of gets me into my next question, which is a bit of a self reflective question for you both. And Zach, we can start with you on this one. You both have, I know, been on your own personal equity journeys as white people who hold a lot of privilege. And so Zach, I'm wondering if you could tell us a little bit about what that journey has been like for you?

Zach Cockrum

Yeah, of course. So I feel like it's been a it's been a long journey for me. I was actually incredibly lucky to grow up in Indianapolis and I went to a high school where white people were a plurality of the school, not a majority. So it was actually incredibly diverse school, and diverse, racially, ethnicities and class. And so you have a lot of people from a lot of different backgrounds, which I think was incredibly valuable in helping me break down assumptions and stereotypes about people and who society tells us people are versus what you actually see in real life. And I think that was incredibly important foundation for me. I've been really incredibly lucky to have colleagues, largely Black colleagues, colleagues of color that I've worked really closely with that have opened the door, I would say, to me to help understand some of the dynamics that I couldn't see through my privilege. And that's been incredibly important to my journey. Along the way, I've definitely made a lot of mistakes. And, and some of those, I think, probably the most frequent one is assuming that I know more than I did, or assuming because of that background, because I feel like oh, I've been working on this so long, like I get it, right. And, and if I get it, I can't make any mistakes, or being too familiar with people and just not recognizing that there are still, to this day, despite my journey, there are still things that I just cannot see, as a straight cisgendered white man. Even as I work hard to pull off the blinders of privilege, there are just dynamics that I will never be privy to, unless somebody enlightens me. And I think the biggest part of my my journey, though, has been you know, Kaila, I think we've talked about this a little bit. But there was a moment and some organizational change meetings where you were incredibly brave and calling out some of the actions that I was doing, where I thought I was trying to manipulate a process of like, playing the politics, 'you got to get to moderate, you got to get like, and we got to get the right people on this committee and convince them and get the vote.' And Kaila was like, 'No, we just need to speak up for what's right.' And it was a really intense conversation. And I got off that call, and I just broke down, I went into another meeting. And I started crying in front of my colleagues, which I've never done before. And I had to jump off of that call. And it was like, What is going on? And what I realized, I mean, within weeks of that, I was back in therapy for the second time, I virtually stopped drinking, I saw, you know, like way back and it actually unpacked for me, what was the barrier for that self reflection and that healing. And I realized that even as far as I gotten on my racial equity journey, a big part of it was patriarchy. And I'm actually reading bell hooks' great book right now on loving men. And I actually, I should go grab, grab this and read the quote, because it just talks about how the first thing that masculine- is the first victim of masculinity of toxic masculinity is boys, and it is cutting ourselves off from our emotions and our ability to feel. And that inability to feel is what got in the way of really linking arms with people to change the organization, and change our wider societal culture. Because you have to have that deep feeling and that emotion in order to really, truly be an ally. Otherwise, you're going to be stuck in this system of navigating power dynamics, using the tools of the system to try to dismantle it, which, you know, we've all heard the quote, you can't dismantle the master's house with the master's tools. And I think that's clearly a reference to racial equity. But I think it applies to all systems of hierarchy, whether that's around sexual orientation, gender, or race, these systems of oppression, you cannot use the power dynamics that are inherent in them to try to take them apart.

Kaila Drayton
It just really, really appreciate that you sharing that instance, and that reflection with us. One, I'm a huge proponent of mental health care and therapy, I don't know who needs to hear this, but go to therapy, go to everyone go to therapy.

Lisa Moore
I agree.

Kaila Drayton
But I do think that like that self care, that mental care also helps in this journey. And it also, I don't mean to sound I hope this doesn't sound arrogant when I say this, but I feel like at any point, when I've offered feedback to folks, particularly white folks, it's been because I have the utmost hope, and the belief that y'all can hear it, and you're gonna take it and you're gonna do great things. I offer feedback, because I'm rooting for you. You know, and so when we had that conversation, and I remember it, I was like, I know we're gonna come out on the other side, and we'll be great. You know, I have so much appreciation for you, Zach, and so thankful that you could hear my feedback.

Zach Cockrum
Thanks. If I haven't said it directly to you, and I really hope I have but thank you. Because I am a better person today than I was a couple of years ago. I'm a better partner to my wife. I'm a better father. I show up differently at work and I still have tons of work to do on myself and how I show up. But it's amazing how even in, you know, trying to be committed to this equity journey over the years, a point in time and a moment, and I wouldn't have received it, I don't think the same way if I didn't care about your feedback and, you know, feel like you're somebody that I really do want to make sure that I'm showing up for and doing right by because of your bravery and how you show up in the organization. But really, it was a revolutionary moment for me in my life. So a deep thanks to offering that feedback. I wouldn't be the person that I am today if it weren't for that.

Kaila Drayton
Absolutely. I appreciate you so much.

Nicole Litwiller
All the feels. Wow. Yeah, I want to make sure we turn to Lisa too, because I know you have many stories to share with us. And I'm curious if you could tell us a little bit about your own journey with accountability and growth.

Lisa Moore
Yeah, thank you. I'm so moved by what you said Zach, I'm just sort of my heart is racing. And I think we should get a t-shirt made for Kaila saying 'Kaila the Catalyst.' Because Kaila, you have been that-

Nicole Litwiller
One hundred percent.

Lisa Moore
-in so many ways.

Nicole Litwiller
Podcast merch

Lisa Moore
I have been clueless about everything I didn't know for most of my life and patting myself on the back for being a good progressive, white person. I had, I would say three major triggers in my work life at National Wildlife Federation, that have really set me on this journey. And the first was a few years ago, about once a month, I would throw these informal lunches at headquarters, invite anybody who wanted to come and I would have some sort of a theme depending on the month or the holiday, whatever. And one of them was going to be on May 8, a couple days after Cinco de Mayo. So I sent an invitation out calling it 'Ocho de Mayo,' and 'come have cervezas.' And I had maracas on the invitation. And we had Chipotle and had fun. And a few days later, I got a call from a colleague, from Chanté, who said that I had deeply offended a Latinx colleague, and she called a meeting for the three of us. And it had not occurred to me, I confess, and I'm so embarrassed to admit that. You know and I apologized at the time. But I really didn't get the depth of the harm I had caused until much later and doing much more work and reading and the personal reflection to understand that I had centered whiteness, and I had othered my, my Latinx colleague, and I had trivialized a holiday that I knew nothing about that is very precious, and important to millions of people. And, you know, I feel deeply sorry for that. And ashamed of that. And I learned a lot because I was called out for it. So that is one thing that started me on the learning journey. Another is, you know, and I really did start reading a lot and of course, the murder of George Floyd and I start reading all the books, and I think, Okay, I'm really on this journey, I'm really learning. But at the same time, the magazine did a story about an under-resourced community in Philadelphia that some of our colleagues were working with to plant native gardens in and lots that were not in use. And we assigned the story, the writer wrote it, she didn't have very good equity competencies, and it caused a lot of harm. We weren't collaborating with our colleagues who were working with this community. And in looking back at the language in the article, I realized there were a lot of the whole white supremacy culture flaws in it. Flaws is too light a word, but it was saviorism, and it was using deficit framing. And I was pretty mortified when I went back and looked at the article, and we changed some of the language in it. But then I got an email from Kaila, our magazine team had been invited to talk with our Black Employee Resource Group. And she said, in no uncertain terms, you are uninvited, you are causing so much harm to our Black colleagues that we don't we don't want to meet with you. And I have to tell you, I've I can't remember ever being more devastated in my work life from feedback. And so I did a very, you know, like white thing and wrote this long email, a little defensive, trying to say ‘what did I do? Please explain it to me so I can fix it.’ And to your credit, Kaila, you said, just do the work. And end of discussion. And so I, I was kind of curled up in a fetal ball of shame and guilt, I would say for a couple of weeks. But it really launched me on this journey. And I started signing up for seminars and webinars and reading more deeply. And working on the leadership competencies and talking with our then trainer, Allen, to get some feedback and just trying to understand what do the work meant. And I am beginning to understand so much about what I didn't know before about how being raised white in this racist society infects us all with traits of white supremacy culture, that we really have to learn to see in order to root them out and never be able to do that entirely. But it's going to be a lifelong journey to try. And so that's kind of where I am is trying to learn to spot my own biases, trying to see how they show up in my life, and in the work that I do, and minimize them as much as possible.

Kaila Drayton
Thanks for reflecting on that, Lisa. I do remember distinctly a couple months later, hearing that you had put together more or less some group of people to really re-evaluate the magazine and how stories were written and what stories were sharing and about whom. And I was like, she gets it. Like she gets it. And she has taken it, like, I use it as one like a model of what I feel like people who have harmed can do. And I hold on to that as like this is this is the outcome that we want. This is a success story. And I don't I don't get to experience a lot of those. And so I'm so thankful. I'm so thankful that you took my feedback and you put it into action. And I'm, I've always been rooting for you. I've always been rooting for your success, and I just have so much gratitude.

Lisa Moore
I cannot tell you how much those words mean to me. And I'll echo Zach's thank you. And I will say that just recently, I'd say in February, I was with my daughter, she just had four wisdom teeth out. And I was looking at work email. And there was a note from you, very short, saying what the magazine is doing has been noticed and is appreciated. And I was in Natalie's living room and she has ice packs on her face, and I just burst into tears. So, because I realized how much that meant to me to hear that. So thanks.

Kaila Drayton
Absolutely. Absolutely. I appreciate the vulnerability and the stories that both of you have been sharing about your own journeys. I'm wondering, we've kind of touched on, you know what accountability has looked like in your journey. But I'm also wondering about what healing looks like how you know it both of you have mentioned feelings of shame and guilt. But I'm also wondering if there have been joyous moments or moments that you feel like really moved you further along the journey on really solid foundation? Zach, I'll start with you.

Zach Cockrum
Yeah, I'm glad you keyed in on that. Because one thing that Lisa was saying, you know, mentioning the shame, and I'm sure I did the same thing and didn't notice it in myself when I was talking. Being a white person that's engaged in this work somewhat publicly within the organization, every once in a while I'll get outreach from a colleague that's done some harm or made a mistake. And one of the things, I have like my equity harm first aid kit, and it's a podcast episode from Brené Brown on this shame spiral. And I think it's like first things first, when you've done harm is stop the bleeding, stop the shame spiral because it's not a productive space. It is important, I think, to actually to of course, to feel guilt over your actions. But staying in that space does not allow you to do the work that you need to do to recover. So when I get those outreach calls, I you know, like, like, Hey, we've done it, the most important thing is you're reaching out to learn, and that's incredibly important. And I immediately send that podcast because I think it's such an incredibly important thing, particularly for white people to do is just like okay, calm down. You're not the first person to make a mistake on racial lines at this organization or in this society. And it's very important to contextualize that. Yeah, I mean, I think in terms of, absolutely the moments of joy, I mean, it's what I was saying earlier as an ally in the space. And I don't know where this quote comes from, but it's something that I've really learned to appreciate, which is that our liberation is our own. And so the idea of not fighting for somebody, but fighting alongside people, and for yourself. Because by honing in again on patriarchy, by shedding some of the shackles of patriarchy, I've become more in touch with myself. And it changes how I show up everywhere. And it actually has resulted in moments of me finding, you know, more moments of joy when I spend time with my children, because I can feel more. And it changes how I react when they do something negatively. And, you know, sure, I move to anger sometimes quickly, as a lot of men do. But I'm working on that. And I'm working on that being my first reaction. So I could speak numerous examples about how that's changed how I behave at work. But I think it's to me, it's really important to share that it's not just something that you do at work. And it's not just something you do around the lines of racial equity. For me personally, it's changed a ton. And it has absolutely brought more joy to my life, because that is one of the things of cutting yourself off from emotions, not allowing yourself to feel sadness, and only anger is you don't get to experience the flip side as much either you cut off the lows, you cut off the highs. And so actually, having that full, robust human experience of emotions is incredibly important to appreciating and reflecting on everything that's happening in front of you in the moment.

Kaila Drayton
I love that. I love that reflection. Lisa, what has healing looked like for you?

Lisa Moore
This session right now it feels kind of like a therapy session, it's pretty nice.

Kaila Drayton
Right? Very cathartic.

Lisa Moore
Honestly, as I've already said, huge joy over feeling like the work we were doing was noticed and appreciated. That was joy. Also realizing that the negative, the honest feedback about where we were making missteps was a gift because it did say 'you're salvageable' and realizing that felt so good, it's like, wouldn't have bothered if you didn't think that there was something that could be fixed. So I hold on to that. Also, the big repair and healing in terms of work, has been reaching out to new voices and new contributors. And we were at ground zero, we were nowhere on having diverse voices in the magazine. And then the last year and a half, we've had many. And we'll continue to do that outreach. And I feel joy about some of those relationships that I'm building with some contributors of color, and the work that we're doing together. And it just feels wonderful. And also, we did contract with a group called Storytellers for Change. And they, the training that we got with them has helped us create a blueprint for the magazine moving forward on equitable storytelling, and how to use asset-based framing and how to reflect a community's voice the way they want their story told. And it involves the entire process from planning to executing the story, editing it, sharing it, archiving it, what can we do to help benefit that community? And it's not just extractive or transactional. So just feeling like we are taking some positive steps mixed in with the missteps is healing in itself.

Nicole Litwiller
I'm wondering if I could turn to you Kaila and ask you a question, because as listeners I'm sure have picked up on you're a central part in these folks' stories and so I'm wondering if you could share with us a little bit about what has healing looked like for you. You come into these stories in very different ways. And yeah, I'd be really interested in hearing that.

Zach Cockrum
The tables are turned, Kaila.

Nicole Litwiller
Interviewer becomes the interviewee.

Kaila Drayton
When I first started becoming more immersed in equity and justice at NWF, I really, it was my lived experience. But I don't have any background in equity and justice, I don't have any formal training. I just know what it feels like. I know what it feels like to be oppressed. And so I think for a long time, I was just coming out guns blazing, like, everyone is going to change, and you're going to change today. And I think part of my healing is also embracing the different paces that we work at, to be able to honor and recognize and acknowledge someone else's progress that might be different or slower or faster or better than my own. And I think most recently, what healing looks like to me is embracing the non closure. I am absolutely owed repair conversations and apologies by people who no longer work here. And I admittedly have been letting that resentment and that bitterness fester within myself to the point that it is affecting how I show up at work, I am noticing that I'm limiting my face to face, quote unquote, face to face, zoom to zoom interactions with people, I settle for an email because it's safer for me, right? Like, I don't have to listen to your microaggressions in real time, I can just read it in an email, and maybe you'll be nicer to me. So I'm finding that I'm a little bit scared to join new groups to join new committees to talk to people, because I'm so burnt out, I'm so hurt by the things that I haven't yet been able to fully let go of that I am now a little bit more closed off to entering into new relationships with my colleagues, because I'm so scared of the what if. I feel like I'm so emotionally drained, I don't know what I'm gonna do. If I have to have another repair conversation. I don't know what I'm going to do if something happens, and I don't get the apology that I deserve. And so that has really affected how I'm showing up lately. And that's my work, right? Like, I don't want white people out there thinking that people of color just coasting along in this equity journey, thinking that we just get the apologies and the this and the that and white people are really, you know, to have the burden of doing the work. It's a lot. And so this brings me back to what I said before, which is go to therapy. Because we-

Nicole Litwiller
Preferrably one who knows the impact of these systems on our mental health.

Kaila Drayton
Exactly. Because if I don't figure out a way to let past harms go, my future at NWF is limited. And I know that. So that's the point in my journey that I'm at. And you know, also reminding myself that there are far more people now than when we started who have the competencies, who can carry the work, who are willing to carry the work and kind of coming out from under my, my shell or my rock that I've been hiding under because I'm just so I'm so tired and bruised and hurt. I'm not recognizing that there are other people who will walk with me on this journey as well.

Zach Cockrum
Since you helped me so much in the past, I if I could offer something to you, Kaila, I was just listening to a podcast talk from Thich Nhat Hanh, the Buddhist monk and peace activist and he was asked by a child, a young person, how he handles all of the madness in the world. And he talks about the Buddhist practice of taking refuge. And he compares that to you know, being on a sinking ship. And if everybody's losing their minds on the sinking ship, the ship is surely going to go down. But if it's just one person can keep it together, that they can inspire somebody else to keep it together. And then all of a sudden, everybody on the ship is working together and can stop that. And so I just want to offer I'm sure you tell yourself this all the time, but it's okay to take refuge and it's okay to have put yourself out there and have been harmed and say I can't do that anymore. That's perfectly acceptable. You have done so much for the transformation of this organization. And it's fine to stepped back and let somebody else try to lead for a little bit and reengage when, when you can, because you have inspired other people to help right the sinking ship. And so there are other sane bodies on this vessel right now that are working together. And, and I know you haven't completely gone into your shell too, I know you're still doing this work. It's not like your just absent, you're like, totally-

Kaila Drayton
Zach's like, 'she just called me out last week, So, like let's be honest.'

Zach Cockrum
You're still there, right? Like you're in the spaces where you feel more comfortable. And that's totally wonderful. But that doesn't mean that you're not making an impact. The fight is going on in different places all the time. And so I just want to offer that to you. Because I think we don't often get that like confirmation from outside of ourselves, that the self care what we're doing for ourselves, or telling ourselves that you can only do what you can do, I just think it's so important to support each other. And recognizing that that's okay to take care of yourself.

Kaila Drayton
I really, really appreciate that, Zach. And I think too, it also speaks to the nature of this work. I've heard people compare it to, you know, running a marathon, I don't think it's a marathon, I think it's a relay race, right. And so I've kind of like, passed the baton for a little while, so that I can take some refuge and some respite and, you know, I'll come back in more deep and meaningful ways to make sure that we push this work forward. But I really appreciate that. Thank you.

Lisa Moore
Kind of picking up on what Zach was saying, and Kaila, I think a lot of us don't begin to grasp how difficult it is to sort of carry that boulder of feeling like you have to turn this aircraft carrier around. And Kaila, your name comes up a lot in glowing notes, from the highest levels, about the amazing work that you're doing. And it's kind of mind blowing all of the different areas of the organization that you are transforming. And so I'm kind of glad to hear what you just said that, you know, I'm appreciating how overwhelming that must feel. And to whatever extent you can step back and do the self care you need. I mean, we all benefit from it. So you know, the more dancing in the kitchen, the better or unplugging. And I keep thinking of that word, grace, you know, many of us mentioned that, that we have to apply it to ourselves, we have to sort of apply self forgiveness when we do make mistakes, and apply it to our friends and colleagues at work. So it just helps me to think of that word, grace.

Zach Cockrum
Yeah, and I think going back to what I was saying earlier about the first aid kit, largely for white people that have you know, had equity transgressions, I think that it's an important role for people with privilege to be there. And so you know, I want to say, explicitly on the podcast, to anybody at National Wildlife Federation, or any external people that are listening to this, you know, look me up on LinkedIn, reach out. If you're like, hey, I need to process this, I need to understand, I think that it's incredibly important that, you know, building a community to work through some of those things, I think the voices of Black and brown people are incredibly important. But all of this exists in a duality, where you can't operate without that input, but also there are some conversations that need to be had in spaces of privilege, where you can actually, you know, maybe share some things that you're really feeling that you feel like might offend somebody if they heard that. And I'm somebody that could could walk through some of those things and those conversations. And I think the other thing that healing looks like, too, is in the macro sense, the organizational sense is it's the building of community. Right? And I think that a lot of that goes hand in hand. It is a lot of what drives that shame spiral is ego, right? It's about you, it's about me and your actions. And the same side, the feeling of like, 'oh, I need to do more I need to stay plugged in to the work' is also like, 'it can't continue without me.' And both of those are two sides of the same individualistic coin, that we're all our own heroes, our own narrative, rather than we belong to a community as an organization, we belong to a community- we belong to multiple levels of community. And the community, if built well will continue to thrive without us as individuals. And that I think is the next level of transformation is continuing to step away from that incredibly individualistic view, and recognizing that we're building something much larger than ourselves.

Nicole Litwiller
Yeah, thank you so much for sharing that. I think that's 100% true, and kind of leads me to my final question that I have for y'all. And so I have been talking to a lot of people throughout the organization about their experiences with equity and justice and this journey at NWF. And one of the things that I continue hearing is that accountability especially is an area of immense growth that this organization needs to go through. And so I'm curious if Lisa and Zach, do you have any ideas for how we as an organization can do better in this realm? Lisa I can start with you.

Lisa Moore
I'm kind of stunned by how much the National Wildlife Federation has done in terms of centering equity and justice, making it a part of the strategic plan, elevating environmental justice, making the connection about why all of this is so fundamentally important to what we do, and providing resources and training. And so I am more focused on a lot that's being done right that I think is making a huge difference in ourselves personally, and in the work we're doing. I would just come back to you know, emphasizing as I said before, this idea of gracefully pointing out when people air. And I think for the most part, everybody does that really well. And you know, the idea that we are going to continue to make mistakes. This is a lifelong journey. This is not a quick fix. And we are all in it together. And that makes a pretty special.

Nicole Litwiller
Yeah, I definitely appreciate that. We need to celebrate what has happened,

Lisa Moore
It's a lot!

Nicole Litwiller
And there's so much to celebrate, which is, yeah, I think you're pointing that out too. Zach, do you have any thoughts?

Zach Cockrum
Yeah, so I think one of the reasons that I originally got drawn into some of the organizational change work here is I saw a lot of my own personal frustrations, even as somebody with privilege, you know, of lacking transparency and decision making. It's not just NWF, it's not just the environmental space, but nonprofits historically invest way too little in management. And management means taking care of people. And so these things are true, regardless of gender, and racial equality, sexual orientation, all of those power dynamics are not made easier by our lack of attention on management and structure and process. At the same time, all of the structure and process in the world isn't going to do anything if we don't have individual change. And so I think sometimes that shame spiral causes people to shut down and not engage, and to, you know, blame wokeness or blame, you know, like, 'I'm not in the in group on this,' and just shut down and keep your head down and try to do your work and not plug into what's happening at the organization. But I want to emphasize that my personal growth and personal change has been so much that I encourage people not to have that defensive reaction and to plug in on the individual level. Because I think we have to do both. We have to look at systems and processes and how they reinforce inequality and inequity and organization. But we all have to continue to be committed to our own personal growth and change.

Nicole Litwiller
Kaila, is there anything you want to add on to that question as well from your own experiences?

Kaila Drayton
Well, obviously, I think NWF should endorse season two of the podcast, because, you know, we're just out here changing lives. No, know, I think, Lisa, you bring up a really good point, which is one that I don't often reflect on is how far we've come. Because I often just concentrate on the work that's left to do. I think that we have employed really good tactics in moving this work forward. We have incredible staff, and it is one step at a time. And oftentimes it's one step forward, and maybe multiple steps backwards. And that that too is the nature and the beauty of the journey. And you know, it's a journey that won't end in a destination. But we've certainly come so far from where we were, so far from where we were. It is a different organization. It is a new day at NWF and I thank you for bringing that up, Lisa, I really want to embrace that more. Nicole, what month did you start with NWF?

Nicole Litwiller
I started in September of 2021.

Kaila Drayton
Yeah. What, I'm curious to hear your reflections in the time that you've been here?

Nicole Litwiller
Well, on that last question. In particular, I think one thing I would love to see more of a culture of is restorative justice. And that's something that I've learned a bit about in my studies and experienced some. But, yeah, I feel like ways to navigate through conflict that centers the people who have been harmed and centers, the humanity of all of us could be really beneficial for navigating through like interpersonal conflict, specifically. Like we've talked about some of these bigger cultural things. But there's still a lot of interpersonal conflict that happens. Like Kaila, you mentioned microaggressions that you experience, whether it's via email or via zoom, they exist. And there are many other conflicts that happen on interpersonal levels. And so having tools to work through those in ways that can be reparative, instead of retributive, I think would be really helpful. And that's, that's very countercultural, like our culture in the US is very much a retribution one and punish-

Kaila Drayton
Punitive.

Nicole Litwiller
Yeah, punitive. And finding ways outside of that norm, I think would be really beneficial to start looking into as an organization. I would love to see that.

Kaila Drayton
Agreed. Thank you both for such a vulnerable conversation, a deep conversation. I'm hoping that our listeners really got something out of it. Really the last question to both of you, and Lisa I'll start with you, if there's anything that you want to leave listeners with, any advice or tips or just a final last thought.

Lisa Moore
I'm gonna send you a bag of kettle corn and win you over. I'm still hung up on that. I guess I guess my thought would be, I'm, sounds really schmaltzy, but I'm really proud of this organization and of the emphasis and the direction that it's taking. And I would just ask people that when they do see the flaws, that they keep the faith that the effort is genuine, and the progress is real. And we are moving forward in a positive way. Like you say, Kaila, there's never going to be an endpoint. And that's a good thing. There shouldn't be. But I like the direction.

Kaila Drayton
Yeah, absolutely. Zach?

Zach Cockrum
I would go with schmaltzy too. Love. It's I think, folks are so used to sort of like passive aggressive way that we do things and white supremacy culture that directness, direct feedback feels like conflict and it feels like hatred, that at times, it feels like anger. And it's not, it's exactly what you were saying, Kaila, you wouldn't offer it if you didn't think there was a chance and hope for change. And upon undertaking the journey of self reflection, there is just an outpouring of love that you can find for yourself and then you can find from other people by doing your own work by doing your own self reflection and growth. And I just think that that's so incredibly important to remember. It's even beyond what I was saying about fatherhood and you know, my spouse. It's humanity, right? It's being a better human, that the journey can open up for you. And I just would encourage people to think about how much growth there is in that.

Kaila Drayton
Wow, so I think that that conversation thus far is maybe my favorite episode. I don't want to play favorites. I love I've loved all the conversations that we've had. But I think that that one just kind of is a little bit more near and dear to my heart. And so I'm wondering Nicole what reflections you have, and specifically, what repair and accountability looks like to NWF as an organization. So not the individuals that make up NWF. But NWF as an organization has committed some harms and some faux pas and how do you see the organization moving through that?

Nicole Litwiller
Wow, big question. I will first acknowledge that I am by no means the voice of God here saying what we should do. I have maybe some ideas, but I recognize that there are many people who know much more than I do. One of the things that I brought up in the interview was this emphasis on a more restorative culture that I think would really benefit all people within NWF and would help us move into more equitable approaches in all that we do. So we've talked a lot this season about where NWF has come from, what this movement is that NWF is a part of and there there's a lot of reckoning that we need to do with that. And so I wonder what an apology would look like from the organization owning the harm that it's done in the past, not just to the employees, but broadly like, to the world. Owning the harm that it's done, committing to doing better, then doing better.

Kaila Drayton
Right, the action.

Nicole Litwiller
Yeah, and I, I want to acknowledge what Lisa said too like, there is a lot of ways that this organization is already doing better and is taking some of those steps, but you can't move on fully and authentically, without an apology, owning what has happened in the past. And so that would be one thing that I would like to see. And that begs the question, like, who does the apology need to be from? Who makes the apology, like, real and official? But something to maybe think about.

Kaila Drayton
So I love that you brought that up, because I have had similar thoughts in the past. And it also feels to me that some kind of public and external acknowledgement and apology and that the repair work, it's like, we skipped forward to the repair work, you know, internally, and I think we're looking externally, and we've got more work to do there. But to me, doing this equity and justice work, there's always this fear in the back of my brain, that if we lose a key person that we will somehow revert back to what NWF was. And I never realized how bad it was until we started to make changes for the better. And so I'm always nervous. And I think that this also contributes to the way that I've been showing up recently, in that I'm very, like, I feel fearful and defensive, because I'm so worried that we're just going to slip back into what we were. None of it feels solid yet. And maybe that's just me, right? I'm just offering my own opinion. Occasionally, our stronghold on equity and justice feels very tenuous. And so would a public apology be the solidifying factor in our commitment to anti racist work, or our equity and justice journey?

Nicole Litwiller
Yeah. And I think what you're saying, I mean, Zach brought this up too about the importance of acknowledging that this is not work that's done by just one individual person. It's not held by one person. And like, yes, your own personal journey is very important, and it's not the ultimate thing. Like it's personal, and it's systemic. And so what that makes me wonder, Kaila, when you're talking about how tenuous this is, it feels like we're holding equity and justice as as an organization, that makes me wonder, how can we really solidify these things within our structures? Because I think you're right, like, it does feel a little bit like if one or two really key people would leave, would everything fall apart? I think we've come far enough in our journey that, I hope that wouldn't happen. But it does say a lot about the need to really like embed these things within our structures and policies, and all of that. And so there's certainly more work to do there.

Kaila Drayton
I think it also speaks to how harmful and impactful white supremacy culture is, and has been at NWF. I feel like between the time that I started and now, I feel like my experience has rewired my brain. It has changed my body in the way that I feel like I'm holding on to things. And so again, like, as I referenced in the interview, it's not a light switch, right? It's not it's not a light switch for anybody who's doing the work. And it's also not a light switch for those of us who have been harmed to get over it or put it aside or be able to like compartmentalize to be able to work with certain people or have certain conversations. My experience of white supremacy culture at NWF has colored my entire life. You know, I can't separate the two. And so that's another factor of giving people the time and space and grace, as Lisa referenced, to be able to grow into equity competencies.

Nicole Litwiller
Yeah, totally. I want to reiterate that because I think that's such an important point. And I want to say loud and clear that it is not the job of a person who has been harmed to figure out the way to move forward. They should certainly be a part of the solution if they want to be but it is not on them to figure out how how to make healing happen.

Kaila Drayton
Yep, that's correct. As a last piece, as Zach offered himself with, particularly for white folks who are on their own equity journey and have questions, I hold space for people of color who have been harmed, or who are having a hard time navigating this work or reconciling with the fact that all of a sudden NWF cares when NWF didn't care for 80 some odd years. It's a lot. It's a lot to hold. It's a lot to work through. And so I too, am available for any kind of conversation that folks feel like they want to have.

Nicole Litwiller
Yeah, thank you for adding that.

Kaila Drayton
Folks, folks of color. White folks. Listen, I love y'all, but it ain't me. It is not me.

Nicole Litwiller
Y'all can reach out to the email, which is in our show notes. And I will be reading those emails as a white person. So if you have things that you'd like to share your reflections on maybe some reflections on your own journey, which I really hope that this episode leads you to do a bit more reflecting on. What have been these elements in your journey that have been like the growing pains, the learning points, the turning points? You're welcome to reach out and share those with us. Kayla might read some of them, maybe not.

Kaila Drayton
We'll see.

Nicole Litwiller
Yeah, we welcome your thoughts and any reflections you might have after listening to this interview.

Kaila Drayton
Yeah, and hoping at the very least, that anybody listening has done some self reflection and that there are pieces, hopefully the whole interview resonates with you, but at least some bits and pieces that you'll take away. So we really appreciate everybody listening.

Nicole Litwiller
Yeah, next week, we are going to be shifting gears a little bit and looking towards the future and thinking about what are folks' hopes and dreams for NWF of the future. And so be sure to tune in with us next week. And we'll talk to y'all next time.

Nicole Litwiller
This podcast is created and hosted by Kaila Drayton, and Nicole Litwiller. It is produced by Nicole Litwiller. Stephen Angello is our editor and audio engineer. All the music you hear throughout the podcast is composed by Luke Litwiller. Thank you to the Equity and Justice Team and many others within the National Wildlife Federation for your support in the creation of this podcast, and for your work towards equity and justice. If you have any reflections or comments you'd like to share with us, please send an email to seedsofculturalchange@nwf.org. Please visit www.nwf.org and click the donate button if you would like to financially support the National Wildlife Federation's work. And don't forget to like comment and subscribe so that other agents of organizational change can find this podcast. Thanks for listening now go plant some seeds of change

Kaila Drayton
Go to therapy. Thank you and goodbye.