The Movement We Come From

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It’s our first interview of the season! To settle us into the context of the National Wildlife Federation, we must understand the broader movement. In this episode, we chat with Rebeca Villegas (Sr. Manager, Environmental Justice) and Nizhooni St Paul (Hurd) (Coordinator Tribal Program Partner) about the complex history of the conservation movement with particular attention to the “who.”

Speakers

Rebecca Villegas – Sr. Manager, Environmental Justice
Nizhooni St Paul (Hurd)– Coordinator Tribal Program Partner
Kaila Drayton – VP of Operations
Nicole Litwiller – Equity and Justice Storytelling Fellow

Note: This episode contains some explicit language.

Transcript

♫ Intro Music ♫

Nizhooni Hurd
And I think sometimes also understanding how the conservation movement began is... I wouldn't even say - it's a hard question, but I wouldn't say it's like a complicated question. Because if you ask any, like, Black person from my neighborhood where they are nowhere near working in any kind of environmentalism, conservation in any kind of work like that, you know, people are just kind of trying to get by. I think they will also have the right answer as well to that it was not, they were not included in that. And so we know who the conservation movement was started by. And then I think you can kind of make a grand assumption about why it was started. And was it really with, you know, Black and brown people's best interests in mind?

♫ Intro Music ♫

Nicole Litwiller
Hello, and welcome back to Seeds of Culture Change, a podcast where we are discussing the National Wildlife Federation's journey towards equity and justice. I'm Nicole.

Kaila Drayton
And I'm Kaila,

Nicole Litwiller
And we are your two co hosts for this podcast. Welcome back. It's our first full episode. I'm really excited. Kaila, how are you feeling about it?

Kaila Drayton
I'm feeling great. I am ready to delve in. I'm ready to get to the nitty gritty and discuss some really interesting topics and hoping that you know, the podcast will foster some reflection and some questions from our listeners.

Nicole Litwiller
Yeah, definitely. Before we dive into all of that, I do have a question for you. We're recording this the day after the Queen, Beyoncé, dropped a new single. Have you listened? And what are your thoughts if you have?

Kaila Drayton
First of all have I listened?

Nicole Litwiller
Yeah, I figured that was a silly question.

Kaila Drayton
I mean, this has been like a countdown. Yeah. Okay, so one, I just, I don't have enough words, because I feel like in my age bracket, right. So I'm 37 it brought me right back to like, early 90s, which I think was like the best of the best music. I was getting like Paula Abdul. I was getting early Mariah Carey, it was giving me everything that I needed to start my day today. Thank you. Beyoncé. Thank you.

Nicole Litwiller
Never enough gratitude for Beyoncé.

Kaila Drayton
I mean. What was your impression?

Nicole Litwiller
I really liked it. I am a youngin'. So didn't maybe have all of those same associations. But I liked the vibe. I also saw that the Nap Ministry posted something about it. And like they were excited about how Beyoncé was talking about rest and sleeping. And as somebody who's, she's talked a lot about, like the grind and working really hard and all of this stuff. So it's a bit of a different message. And so I was excited to listen for some of those things, too. And of course, the music itself was just solid. Always

Kaila Drayton
Incredible. Have you watched Homecoming?

Nicole Litwiller
Only like six times.

Kaila Drayton
Thank you. Okay, I was gonna say, Have you watched it? And did you only watch it once? So.

Nicole Litwiller
Yeah, I had like kind of a, there was a time in middle school when I was really starting to enjoy Beyoncé a little bit. And then I had kind of a break. And then during the pandemic, I watched Homecoming, and I got like, totally obsessed. And she was my number one artist on Spotify last year and all of this stuff, and it's so I'm a big fan. Maybe not quite, I can't compete with your level of Beyonce fan...dom fandom... fan-ness?

Kaila Drayton
You know, and I don't expect you to you know what I mean? Like, we should all have aspirations in our life must also make them plausible. So

Nicole Litwiller
Yeah, exactly.

Kaila Drayton
Oh, my gosh. I also wanted to share with you in totally unrelated news, I picked up this sticker booklet. So for those of you who know me, you know that I'm a huge fan of stickers. And these are a collection known as 'I adulted at work.' And so they have options, like 'I unmuted before speaking' or like, 'I didn't correct my boss and public.' You know, 'I wore pants to the video conference,' but I was laughing because there's one particular one in here that says, 'I didn't make a big deal out of it.' And we can all agree that I will never be using this.

Nicole Litwiller
One to be sent to somebody else, but maybe not one you'll ever give yourself.

Kaila Drayton
Exactly, I'll go ahead and cut that out and mail it.

Nicole Litwiller
That's awesome. That's sounds like a fun, Zoom meeting game to play when you when you need something extra to entertain yourself.

Kaila Drayton
I like it, I think that I am going to send them to my team because I think everybody deserves a reward for wearing pants on their video conference.

Nicole Litwiller
Definitely, definitely.

Kaila Drayton
So moving us towards the topic of today's episode, we're looking at a critical history of the conservation and environmental movement. And Nicole, what do you think listeners should be looking for? Or themes or things that folks should be reflecting on as they listened to the episode?

Nicole Litwiller
Yeah, well, first of all, I'm just I'm really excited to share this interview with y'all. I really enjoyed hearing from our guests. And I hope that you will, too. I think one thing, and I'm gonna speak specifically to any white folks who have been really invested in the conservation movement, I encourage you to sit with your feelings and try and notice what might be coming up for you as you're listening to this. Because I think sometimes when we're really invested in a project, or a movement or an organization, and there's some serious critique of that, it gets uncomfortable. And we our instinct is to be defensive. So I would just encourage all listeners to take deep breaths as you're listening, if there's something that's coming up for you, and you're like, getting angry or frustrated, that we're critiquing something that is really near and dear to your heart, and your your life. I just encourage you to, to breathe, and to try and notice what feelings are coming up and not judge them necessarily, but just let yourself sit with them.

Kaila Drayton
I think something else that I offer for people. So I mean, as a moment of vulnerability in my childhood, I was not encouraged to express my feelings or emotions. And so sometimes for me, it's really hard to pinpoint exactly what I'm feeling. I'm someone who takes a really long time to process things. Sometimes days, sometimes it takes me weeks. But what has helped me previously is noticing how I'm feeling in my body. So when I'm feeling triggered, or when something isn't sitting well with me, my hands shake, and my my heart rate increases. And that's my signal to know that I'm uncomfortable with something. And it's also my signal for me to process is it, I'm uncomfortable because this is a harmful dynamic? Or am I uncomfortable because my thought pattern or what what I have accepted as the truth is being challenged? And so those are just different things to pay attention to pay attention to your your breathing and how your body feels throughout the interview, to really pinpoint if there are things that are are causing a reaction for you or causing some discomfort.

Nicole Litwiller
Thanks for sharing that. I think that distinction between those two different body responses is very important to note. For sure. Yeah. Do you have anything that you'd like to specifically note for listeners to pay attention to?

Kaila Drayton
Yeah, I think maybe just sitting with the themes of erasure and thinking about who has been represented and who hasn't. And then even within those populations, what are the subcultures within those populations who have been additionally marginalized? Or additionally sidelined in any decision-making or advancement of the environmental movement? Yeah, absolutely. So with that, we will, we'll get into the interview.

Nicole Litwiller
Yeah. Sounds great.

♫ Transition Music ♫

Kaila Drayton
All right, everyone. Today, we have Rebeca Villegas and Nizhooni Hurd joining us. Welcome. We are going to kick us off by having you all share your name, your pronouns should you choose to do so, a little bit about your role and the teams you work with at NWF, And then how do you like to enjoy the outdoors? Rebeca, I'll start with you.

Rebeca Villegas
Thank you, Kaila and Nicole, for making the space here for us. As you mentioned, my name is Rebeca Villegas, and I'm the Senior Environmental Justice Program Manager here at the National Wildlife Federation. And my pronouns are she, her, hers. And in my role, I helped to basically develop the environmental justice program at the beginning of its infancy, you know, in a way and so in my role as a program manager, I do a variety of different tasks to make sure that things continue to move forward. So work with different teams across the organization and just across the environmental landscape in general to try to create a shared vision in terms of environmental justice and conservation as well. And so within my team, we do a lot of work to ensure that we're centering the voices of folks that have been underserved and marginalized. So when we're thinking about Black, Indigenous, Latine, Asian and Pacific Islander communities that haven't necessarily been centered in the environmental conservation movement, we flip the script and make sure that they're the ones that are centered that their voices are heard, and that their issue priorities are continuously uplifted and connected right to all the conservation efforts that are happening here at the National Wildlife Federation, and nationally, just in general. And in regards to my what I do and enjoying the outdoors, I think I'm a little bit of a phenomenon where I'm not necessarily a hiker, or I don't fish, I don't necessarily go in the forest too often, quite frankly. And so I would call myself you know, an individual who loves to just be in nature and just sit and watch. And so that's my connection and relationship with the outdoors.

Kaila Drayton
I love that Rebeca, because one, there's a million different ways to enjoy the outdoors and to enjoy nature. And two, it really speaks to my heart because I to enjoy nature in the abstract. Like I like to see it, I like to see it thrive. I love conservation success stories. And I also don't want the nature to touch me. Like I like I don't want to go swimming and feel something on my foot. I don't want anything to land on me, I don't need the leaves to be stuck in my hair. Like, I feel like perhaps we are very similar in that way.

Rebeca Villegas
Absolutely. You and I would thrive over some coffee and looking out the window and just enjoying, enjoying life

Kaila Drayton
beautiful. And Nizhooni welcome.

Nizhooni Hurd
Thank you so much for having me, I will say I'm okay with having leaves in my fro. I think sometimes, you know, I let my curls flourish in the natural world. And I'm from Colorado. And so maybe my curls are more so like kind of crinkling up in the natural world, in my element, lots of dandruff mixed in with the leaves. Sometimes, I really enjoy it. And I love that I think sometimes my favorite part of nature is getting really dirty in nature, and then taking that, that wonderful shower afterward. And I think it definitely, you know, privilege and all of that as well. But it's something that I for sure, for sure appreciate every time is getting to wash all that dirt off of me and wash my hair and get back to my curl routine. You know, after so many days in the wilderness. Yeah, I don't really spend that much time anymore. But anyway, my name, my name is Nizhooni. And my pronouns are she, her, hers. My role is with the Tribal Partnerships Program, I work as a coordinator, and the Tribal Partnerships Program does an array of things. It's really just kind of partnering with sovereign Tribal Nations to solve today's conservation challenges for future generations. And so the work is headquartered out of the Rocky Mountain Regional Center, and we kind of span all over, we do work with buffalo conservation and restoration with wanting to bring buffalo back to I would say their best owners and their best caretakers. And then we also do work with the Colorado River where we're working on having like a management plan going, or really, I guess, I would say encouraging a management plan for the Colorado River so that tribes will be included in that. And that's not just solely work that belongs to NWF. But I would say a lot of the Tribal Partnerships work is working in partnerships with tribes so that it's not at the end of the day is this NWF label, but that the work is done with the people and the people can work together with whoever needs to be worked together with so that the river can be influenced because the river is dwindling. And it's something that we can see all across the news. So yeah, and I think I kind of already answered that last question. I like I like to be outside, I like to get dirty. I like to dig for worms and I don't need to go far. I like my backyard. I think also having you know, talking with people outside coffee outside is probably the best way I would say just being in the space.

Nicole Litwiller
Yeah, that's there are times when I like both of those things that Rebeca you and Nizhooni shared. Sometimes I like getting a little messy in the outdoors. And also a lot of times I really don't like the bugs in my space. But they have their space. I have mine. We respect each other most of the time. Thank you so much for sharing that with us. Both of you. I feel like the ways that you describe some of your roles on the team hopefully makes it clear to the listeners out there why we've asked you to speak to this topic on the conservation movement and providing some history and context as to what this large conservation movement is before we dive into some of the topics we're going to be talking about later on in the season. So to start us off, I'm wondering if you could share from your own perspective and your understanding, how did the conservation movement come to be? How did it begin? Who was involved? So, Nizhooni, maybe we can start with you?

Nizhooni Hurd
Yeah. I would say, it's sometimes I think it can be difficult to think about. But from my perspective, I don't believe in the conservation movement to start from anywhere that centers around my people. And, you know, so I identify as Black and Indigenous Navajo. And knowing that the conservation movement, and I think sometimes I kind of circle things around big green organizations. And that's easy to look up who was the founder of Greenpeace, or NWF, or whoever, there's so many of them. And just thinking about, like, how the leaders and the founders of those organizations are not reflective of the people that come from my communities. And I think sometimes also understanding how the conservation movement began is, I wouldn't even say - it's a hard question, but I wouldn't say it's like a complicated question. Because if you asked any, like, Black person from my neighborhood where they are nowhere near working in any kind of environmentalism, conservation, any kind of work like that, you know, people are just kind of trying to get by. I think they would also have the right answer as well to that it was not, they were not included in that. And so we know who the conservation movement was started by. And then I think you can kind of make a grand assumption about why it was started. And was it really with, you know, Black and brown people's best interest in mind? I would say no. I know that it was heavily white, it was probably a mixture of some slave owners in there or something you know, you always find different histories like that as well.

Nicole Litwiller
No, I really appreciate you naming some of those things. And I think that's a really great starting point for us for this conversation, thinking about the "who" is a really critical question that we need to ask. So yeah, thank you for sharing all of that. And yeah, Rebeca, do you have anything you'd like to add on to that?

Rebeca Villegas
Yeah, absolutely. And, again, thank you, thank you for the time here. And I would say a lot of the lessons and the history that I was taught was, I'd have to say, the teachings of Dr. Dorceta Taylor and her book, The Rise of the Conservation Movement is where I pull a lot of my kind of knowledge and to Nizhooni's point, you know, it's a very sad history, I would say, but, you know, in terms of, of how the movement began, is really, yeah, it's up to who it kind of benefits in that sense as, as Nizhooni was mentioning. And so you read from Dr. Dorceta Taylor's book in terms of folks like Madison Grant, and you know, Theodore Roosevelt, and Gifford Pinchot, and John Muir, these folks that are, quote, unquote, called the fathers of the conservation movement, who are very connected to the National Park Service are connected to just several pieces of legislation that had centered conservation and the protection of nature, but they also had their complex history and racist history, quite frankly. I mean, you have folks like Madison Grant, who wrote The Passing of The Great Race that supported eugenics. And so when we think about eugenics, it's been as basically the control people's reproduction. And which is really the baseline for a lot of forced sterilization that happened among a variety of different communities, and also affected immigration in general here in this nation. And so you have these folks that were very privileged white men predominantly that were creating this movement. And as Nizhooni had mentioned, for who? For other white, which men as well, that were interested in trying to get away from the city, and basically create these spaces in which folks can continue to, quote unquote, connect with nature, right. And so I really appreciate the conversation about how we connect and see nature as well. Because within this scope, and landscape, in a sense, a lot of these leaders, as I mentioned, wanted to preserve these spaces for hunting, for sport, right, it was a very privileged space for folks to be able to be in the area. And that was all by design, right in terms of folks how they wanted to create these different parks in access and whatnot, and they didn't have people of color in mind. And, and, you know, you wouldn't expect that from racist folks who, you know, believe in eugenics, and don't recognize the humanity of people, quite frankly. Especially Indigenous communities, especially folks, there's a lot of different communities already in the area of, you know, when we're thinking about Mexico as well, and a lot of Latina community that have already been in this, this nation. And so you see, these folks who had this power, had this privilege had this intention, create this movement, to benefit themselves to be able to create these spaces for other white men, quite frankly, to enjoy these areas. And so that's the issue that we have in mind, right? Because at the end of the day, these folks, although they again, pass certain great legislation did some great work, but we can't forget that past because it's really reflected in the way that we just in general do the work that we do and who we center and who we position. And so I'll talk a little bit more about that. But in terms of the conservation movement again, that complex, yet still very messed up history that we're still grappling with today.

Kaila Drayton
And I think that both of you bring up really interesting points. And what it made me think of is kind of the parallels between the colonization of what we now call the United States. And this like practice of staking a claim to something, right, or, or even just by naming it, naming the conservation movement. You know, folks, we're doing the work before it was ever called the 'conservation movement,' right. And so even the word 'movement' makes it seem like there wasn't any movement before, or whatever work was being done before we we coined the term is irrelevant, right? Because who was doing the work before we coined the term? Well, people that we don't want to be included in the environmental movement. So we're going to, we're going to name it, and then we're going to create barriers for anybody who doesn't look like us. And it's really interesting, that thought pattern that goes on. So we talked a little bit about where the conservation movement started. But what does the conservation movement look like today? Has power shifted? Who has it shifted to? And what are the challenges that we're still facing? Nizhooni, I'll kick it over to you.

Nizhooni Hurd
Yeah, I would say the conservation movement, I think has definitely shifted. And I think that there are more Black and Indigenous people that are included in the conservation movement now. But I would say that there's still a whole lot of growing that needs to happen. Because even if you know, it's a few of us on this podcast, I would also think, you know, how many in our organization right now are reflective of the people who are on this podcast? And, you know, why do we need to have Environmental Justice trainings, or Tribal and Indigenous Enhancement Strategy? You know, those are things that we're actively working on as well for the organization. But I think that there's still a lot of growth that needs to happen. And it's wonderful that those things can take place. And then people are kind of, I would say, maybe waking up. But I would say so a whole lot of people that are very sleep. And understanding that Black and brown people have a lot more to say, and that we have a lot more position in the environmental movement, conservation movement than people really think. And it's more than just, you know, we have more solutions than just don't litter or, you know. I know, our communities can like joke about, you know, we were the ones that had the plastic bags underneath the sink. But now everybody wants to talk about conservation. And it's like, that's true. And I think we also have way more to give and plastic bags underneath the sink is just a stepping stone. And but I think, I don't know, I think it just has a lot. I think there's still so much growth. But I wanted to read this from what was this from 1901, with John Muir's, 'Our National Parks.' And, you know, it's like just knowing that I was born in the 90s. And knowing that that was in the same century, is that John Muir also wrote in that, while he's trying to get people to come to the national parks, and to promote tourism and all that kind of stuff. He also says, you know, "As to the Indians, most of them are dead or civilized into useless innocence." And I think that that's something that still kind of rings in the back of my head. And we are still dealing with, you know, the aftermath of people not understanding that Indigenous people are still here. And so it's, I would say, it's very difficult in a conservation movement, or, you know, whatever we want to call it, when, you know, there's a huge audience of people where they don't understand it, they cannot put two and two together, that there are still Indigenous people here, and that there are still a lot of communities or sovereign nations. And then you have to go, well, maybe not all of them are sovereign nations, maybe they're only recognized by the state or only in a town or something like that. And so I think it's, it's like still needing to say, hey, we're here, we're here, we're here. We're not dead or civilized into useless innocence. But we're still here, we're not useless. And we can also contribute ourselves as well.

Kaila Drayton
Thank you for sharing that, Nizhooni, It's really powerful. Rebeca, additional comments and context.

Rebeca Villegas
Yeah, well, I think one of the things that I'd like to always uplift as well as the Green 2.0 Report, right. That's a huge report and undertaking that several environmental leaders have moved forward where it's a transparency card where folks have been sharing from government agencies to nonprofits, their staff, in terms of where they are in diversity, equity, inclusion, and what positions that they hold. And so I was reflecting right before this podcast, just looking at information and numbers and although we have increased the number of people of color within several of these different organizations, there's still a big issue with power in terms of what positions that they're holding. Right? We see, we saw a lot of entry level individuals who, as we've seen from several studies, often it's kind of a circle of of retention, right? Folks leave and come back or all that. And so I think it's not just about increasing the number of folks but ensuring that they have positions of power to make those shifts and change. But then taking it a step further as well, because oftentimes, when we were faced with this problem, we've had this urgency of trying to resolve it. And if we don't see results within a certain timeframe, or, or context or whatnot. It's like, oh, well, it didn't work. But that's the issue that we I think we're facing here at NWF is that these are these huge systems and power structures that we need, that we're trying to address. And as the way as they, you know, kind of compiled and created themselves, is going to take a lot of time to shift that paradigm to shift that thinking, and to make systems change, right, not only just on a national scale when we're talking about policy, but also in an organizational level scale, as well. And so I think that's where we are, as well, in terms of this organization, that we need to continue, again, to make sure that there's, there's more people of color that represent this this nation, right, because oftentimes, the messenger is more important than the actual message. But then again, it's that it's making sure that folks have not only the power, but the resources available to succeed in whatever endeavor that they're trying to move forward and tackle under their leadership.

♫ Transition Music ♫

Nicole Litwiller
So we started this conversation today by looking more broadly at the conservation movement. But let's narrow in a little bit to talk more specifically about the National Wildlife Federation. How does NWF's culture reflect the conservation movement? How are we similar? How are we different? Rebeca, I'll pass it over to you first.

Rebeca Villegas
Yeah, great question. And I mean, I think the biggest one that comes to mind is when we're thinking about our policy advocacy, right, and who we're positioning and who we're trying to kind of move forward on. So when there's a, you know, big piece of legislation or whatnot, we're, we're always going to those folks who have that power, right, we're going to Congress, we're going to the senators are going to the House of Representatives and trying to get as much support from XYZ to really move forward that policy, but then there's successions that have to happen, you need to find a middle ground to be able to pass it forward. And we're doing this kind of dance in a way, right, as the Federation to make sure that we're, you know, not kind of rubbing folks the wrong way, that we're doing it in a bipartisan format that brings everybody together. But at the end of the day, we need to make sure that we're remembering why we're doing this and for who are we doing this, right, because if we're trying to make sure that people you know, have the information, the education, the ability to, you know, talk to their legislators, for example, then we need to build power among people among community, so that they're able to not only sway legislation, which way that we wanted to do it, but that they're actually empowered to be able to provide the solutions that are unique to their community and their space. And I think that's something that we're not used to here at the Federation. Having folks speak for themselves and, and to, and to recognize folks lived experiences as equal, if not more important to the science, right? Because at the end of the day, we need to make sure that we can pose XYZ and you know, set aside some funds and do it, whatever. But at the end of the day, if folks aren't connecting, they don't feel empowered, they don't see that relationship in terms of the environment, then we're doing a disservice. What we're doing is basically, again, we're doing the same thing that this movement has done, focusing on the ones that have the power and the privilege. And so there's just so much that we need to unlearn as an organization to be able to be successful, quite frankly.

Nicole Litwiller
Yeah. 100%. Yeah. Nizhooni, do you have anything you'd like to add on to that?

Nizhooni Hurd
Yeah, I would say definitely the unlearning unraveling, unraveling our thought processes of how we think things should go, especially in terms of just like an organizational culture. I would say it's even something as simple as like, you know, it's like we can get to knowing and understanding like a land acknowledgement is important. Right? Well, who do we ask to do the land acknowledgement? Well, Nizhooni's native, let's ask her to do land acknowledgement. And then it just kind of does this weird cycle again, you know, of, of like, well, all the information or all of the, maybe, justice centered knowledge, it only belongs to Black and brown or like people of color. And I don't believe that to be true. I think that anybody no matter what color you are, you can have knowledge of what justice and what reparations looks like, and what does reconciliation mean, I think everybody should be able to have that knowledge. And especially when you're thinking about making things equitable, as well, too where, yeah, it doesn't have to be just the one native person giving the land acknowledgement. But you know, it's like, are we really kind of thinking through like, you know... people have really been dispossessed, and they have been stolen from, and we're talking about theft. And you know, what does that feel to be stolen from, and then you're there, and then you don't have any resources. And then everybody is going to walk on by you and stopped at this really nice National Park, and we're not even going to acknowledge that there's Indigenous people that live there, or we're going to barely do the work, or it's going to take time to, and I know, I get it, it takes time. But I think sometimes it's so frustrating when you have to live and you see things every day, and it just doesn't meet the standards, I would say. Well, we got standards for a whole lot of other things, I would say. But a lot of the times too, I think with culture of like workspaces, you know, and we say, well, NWF family, and all that kind of stuff. And then in my mind, I'm thinking family, okay, well, how do we act in our own families as well, too. And I think it's like, to me, conservation movement, environmentalism, all that kind of stuff, it really just has to come down to like, okay, this person cared about something. And they wanted there to be land or space for some x, y, and z, this specific animal is important to us. So we want to do what we can to protect this animal. And so I think it's like if we're thinking about ourselves in relationship to the natural world. But we also have to think about ourselves, I would say, in relationship to our peers and our loved ones as well. And I would say, you know, if there's people that are disrespectful to women, that if it's a, you know, a man who's cussing out his wife and disrespectful to her, and then he turns around and says, Well, this is the policy that needs to happen to protect the environment. It's like that makes absolutely no sense. And that's like a little bit of like eco-feminism, I guess, where there's been talk about and theory around the way that we treat women is the way that we treat the natural world. And that's just something it's like, if it's a heavily male dominated space, and it doesn't mean that you know, people can't have like roles or things like that, or you know, that there's not order I guess, but just go on about a, I would say, a willy nilly way and treating people in your life disrespectfully, and then turn around and say, 'This is my job, and I do amazing work.' It just doesn't really add up to me. And so, to me, sometimes, that's what I hope to see as like, organizational culture change is just to make sure that people are reminded to be a good person, even at home. When they turn off their computer, when they're figuring out you know, how to do their landscaping in their backyard that has nothing to do with conservation work - because I know not all of us are on the level of like, we're gonna have rocks and like pollinator gardens and stuff, some people really want lawns. I don't know. But while you're doing that, while you're, you know, you're with your family, your children, your grandma, all that kind of stuff to be a loving person. And I think that that is I would hope that that change in people's everyday life would be reflective of who they choose to bring to work, I guess as who they are as a person.

Kaila Drayton
That's so important to note. Nizhooni is the the intentionality that needs to go into relationship building. And that is required to do any kind of equity and justice work. And additionally, that's required to change the culture of an organization, especially one that is rooted in white supremacy culture as NWF is inherently because we are in the environmental space. So thank you for sharing that. I guess my next question, then to both of you is what would you like to leave listeners with? What would be your your closing remarks, your closing comments, any kind of advice or feedback for folks as they're listening and thinking through the conservation movement, where we started and where we're going, and how folks, you know, if you are at NWF, or any kind of conservation organization, you are part of the change whether you want to be or not so, so get on board, it's fun. But, Rebeca, I'll start with you any closing remarks?

Rebeca Villegas
Absolutely. I mean, I would say, you know, do the research, do some introspective learning and understanding. Don't wait until your organization is - I mean, the great thing about NW F is we also live in a very kind of privileged space where we're able to take time for training and all these different pieces, but that work needs to happen outside of those work hours, right? There's always something new to learn and to grasp to understand and taking a step further as well like when you understand and try to think a little bit more about just the conservation movement, the different leaders, why we are in the place that we are like do some of that reflection as well and in understanding like why do we continue perhaps doing the same steps, right? The same format, targeting the same individuals, like, let's start to break those cycles. But it starts with just a natural curiosity and learning and commitment to also grow and move forward. And then the last thing I'll just say is that, you know, in terms of equity and justice and environmental justice, there is no perfect stamp or way to go about doing the work, right. But it doesn't absolve you from that trying and not starting. And it's an iterative process that you need to continue to refine and do better. And that's just the journey and the joy of it as well. So as Kaila had mentioned, I mean, it is a very fun space that that and the the day that train has left, right, I think that was one thing that folks need to remember, like, you know, the same things that we're doing now have not yielded different results, when we're talking about the conservation movement, environmental movement, and just where we are with IPCC Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, we haven't made an impact yet. Right. And so let's start to think of new ways of doing the work and, you know, can't fail as we continue to move forward. So thank you.

Kaila Drayton
Yep, absolutely. Nizhooni closing remarks?

Nizhooni Hurd
Closing remarks for me, let's see. Help tribes get their buffalo back. Tribes that it is important for them, because buffalo are an important food source, and they are important for cultural revitalization as well. And sustainability, I would say. Veganism is not the answer. Yeah, I'll leave it at that. I don't know. I was watching something with vegans, and I was like, this is really annoying to me. Because I think there's more to, you know, to conservation or, or, you know, rights and things like that. And I think even, you know, joking around with that I was still make sure that people remember human rights as well. And, you know, specifically for me, that's, you know, making sure that tribes are able to exercise their sovereignty, even if you don't agree with what they're doing. But that sovereignty is very, very, very important, the same as your own human anatomy and your autonomy is as a person. You know, if you're working as a tribe, that's like one body. So sovereignty is very, very important, and it should be exercised and allowed to be exercised. And I would also say, just like what I was mentioning before, just to make sure that folks are good people at home and to their families. And to know that, you know, I think change can oftentimes start even in your own family, too. It doesn't mean like, having a table conversation where like, we have to talk about environmental racism. But you know, it can come up and to just encourage your people, and even if it's not about the environment, or the natural world, but just to encourage people to be the best people that they can be be the best you that you can be. And yeah, I think I would leave it there.

Kaila Drayton
Well, thank you both for being on the podcast today. You both have shared such amazing perspectives and thoughts. With us. We're hoping that our listeners got something out of that as well.

Nicole Litwiller
Yes, what a way to kick off the season. Thank you so much for starting things off with us. It's gonna be a great season. And we're really grateful that y'all were willing to share all of your amazing wisdom with us today. So thank you so much.

Nizhooni Hurd
Thank you.

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Kaila Drayton
Super powerful interview, really incredible perspectives and information that was shared. Nicole, what are your reflections?

Nicole Litwiller
Yeah, I mean, big question. There was a lot there in that interview. And as I listened back through, one of the things that I was reflecting on was that we didn't really ask the question, Why was there a need for the conservation movement in the first place? And what were the things that were happening that were causing environments to be degradated and wildlife to lose their habitats and their lives? And for me, the answer is rooted in colonization. It's rooted in capitalism and imperialism. And, and I think that's an important question for us to ask, as we think about this conservation movement that we're a part of. And as we think about, like, why is climate change happening? It goes back to some of these root things that are very connected. And like, as we said, in the episode, the conservation movement was essentially created by and for white people, and was kind of responding to these things that white people had done in the first place. And yeah, I don't know I just have a lot of thoughts kind of bouncing around my head about all of that. So If you have any thoughts on what I'm saying, Kaila, and you can help parse out my, my jumbled mess.

Kaila Drayton
Yeah, I think that it's a really interesting question. And what it makes me think of is we talk about creating this movement, but at what point was a co-opted by white folks, because one could argue that the environmental conservation movement has always existed, except it was simply a way of life. And then, you know, white folk came and gave it a name. And now all of a sudden, it's this this thing, that somehow folks who have always been doing the work were cut out of. And I think about that as we come out of the long weekend of Juneteenth. And what did Juneteenth mean, originally, and now that it's been made a federally recognized holiday, what is it turning into? Because we've got some states across the country where you can't even teach about Juneteenth, but then we're closing schools and giving everybody the day off. Right, so, so what does any of it mean? Right and, and how it started and why, and who got to decide that this is now a movement, when one could argue that the stewardship of land and wildlife has always been important, just important to different people.

Nicole Litwiller
Yeah. And I find myself thinking, too, a lot about the Doctrine of Discovery. And that was something that was really prevalent, and there's still like, remnants of that in our culture today. But it was something that was used by a lot of European Christians as a method to, or as a reasoning and a right to seize land and dominate over people who weren't Christian, essentially. And we can put some references to other organizations and places where you can learn more about the Doctrine of Discovery. But I think about that a lot as one of the elements that contributed to the violence against people, the violence against land, the violence against wildlife, and all of those those things at the beginning of the so-called conservation movement that, as you said, certain people got to determine that this was a movement that they were starting, are important to remember, as we're as we're critiquing it, as we're being honest about where it is now, all of that stuff. But yeah, Kaila, what are some of your thoughts that are standing out from our interview?

Kaila Drayton
Yeah, I think about the theme of exclusion, and a racer is one that's not only prevalent in the founding of the environmental movement, and quite frankly, the founding of National Wildlife Federation, but it's still present in the culture today across the movement, and at NWF. And so really exploring who's making decisions, how they're making decisions, who are they including in the decision making process? And, you know, the implementation of whatever has been decided on? I question everything, I question everything. I think that that is one of the ways that I've been able to apply equity and justice values to my work is to just be wondering, who does this decision benefit? And who does it leave out?

Nicole Litwiller
Yeah, I think that's such a great point, I get so sick of the like reasoning, well, this is just how we do it, or this is just how it's always been done. And usually, that is a red flag for me to say, In other words, 'this is something that is maybe rooted in white supremacy culture, and we don't want to question it, because it'll make us uncomfortable if we do.' And so for me, when I hear people use that phrase, I very rarely am willing to accept it. Because we can always question why things are done the way they are, or why a hierarchy is set up in the way it is, why certain people get paid more than others, all of these things, we have permission to question them. And oftentimes, those questions can lead to really valuable critiques, which can lead to really valuable changes. So I think that's such a great point.

Kaila Drayton
Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, on the flip side of that, you'll also discover the pieces that work right, the pieces that, that we should keep or that are equitable, or that are, you know, leading to improvement. How do we take those pieces and then expound upon them?

Nicole Litwiller
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So maybe that's our call for listeners this episode is to question everything.

Kaila Drayton
Exactly.

Nicole Litwiller
So next week's episode, we are going to be picking up this conversation, kind of where we left it off. And we're going to be talking about some of the founding culture of the National Wildlife Federation, and it'll continue on with some of the same themes that we've been discussing so far. So be sure to tune in next week for our conversation with Anna and Anita on the founding culture of NWF. And if you have any questions for us in the meantime, don't hesitate to reach out. Our email is in the show notes.

Kaila Drayton
Thank you for listening and goodbye.

♫ Outro Music ♫

Nicole Litwiller
This podcast is created and hosted by Kaila Drayton and Nicole Litwiller. It is produced by Nicole Litwiller. Stephen Angelo is our editor and audio engineer. All the music you hear throughout the podcast is composed by Luke Litwiller Thank you to the Equity and Justice Team and many others within the National Wildlife Federation for your support in the creation of this podcast and for your work towards equity and justice. If you have any reflections or comments you'd like to share with us please send an email to seedsofculturechange@nwf.org And don't forget to like, comment, and subscribe so that other agents of organizational change can find this podcast. Thanks for listening now go plant some seeds of change.

Nizhooni Hurd
Oh, and water is life sorry. Water is very important and we need to get on protecting our water sources especially when they're important for tribes too.

Kaila Drayton
Listen, water is life, protect buffalo, don't be an asshole. Like, in summary

Nizhooni Hurd
I would say so. Unless you need to be an asshole. You know to get the mission done.

Kaila Drayton
Right, you can be an asshole if you're protecting water or buffalo.

Nizhooni Hurd
Yeah, let's say that!